Strategy & Tragedy: CEO Stories with Steph Melodia is the best business podcast for curious entrepreneurs. Hosted by Top 20 Female Founder, Stephanie Melodia, Strategy & Tragedy features candid interviews with entrepreneurs who have scaled - and failed - their businesses - sharing their lessons in entrepreneurship along the way. From Nick Telson-Sillett who achieved financial freedom after selling DesignMyNight (on The Wildest Exit Day in History™) to Emmie Faust, the founder of Female Founders Rise, who opened up about her breakdown on the road to discovering her mission in supporting female founders. Listen to this educational and inspirational business podcast on Spotify, Apple, Google, Amazon, YouTube or watch the clips on Instagram, LinkedIn, TikTok, or YouTube Shorts.
In this episode, Stephanie Melodia interviews Thomas Panton, the founder and CEO of Canopey, the online marketplace for sustainable goods. In this episode, Thomas shares his background as an athletic swimmer and how that helped him become better entrepreneur; how he raised funding when the idea was pre-product during an era of polycrisis and; how he handled rejection after rejection - especially with a company that is so mission-driven. Thomas represents the quintessential entrepreneur; he's determined, resilient, a visionary, and a great public speaker.
Watch the full episode on YouTube, subscribe on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Amazon Music, or keep reading for the full interview below:
SM: Thomas, welcome to the Strategy & Tragedy podcast! It's great to have you. I am particularly honoured to have you as my guest on this episode because you are an ex-athlete, you're now the founder and CEO of Canopey which is an online marketplace to help consumers shop for learn about and track the impact or sustainable products which sounds amazing - congratulations! Let's get into your athletic swimming part first!
TP: I always say to people that my first experience of being a founder was being a international sportsperson, because there's so many similarities - from the drive and ambition to the hours that you put in, to having to manage family relationships around all of that as well there's so many similarities and I think that I didn't really notice that until I was a founder later down the line at the time as a summary for like "oh sportspeople only experience that" but you realise that it's quite quite a sort of like cross sectoral.
SM: What are the main similarities that you've noticed between the athletics and entrepreneurship?
TP: I think the probably the most similar is just like to get to that level of Sport and to be a founder of a company like canopy you have to have a sort of north star that is your consistent goal regardless of what happens the high is the lows the middle bits which are kind of grey and boring and you you're always set on reaching that absolute goal that you've set yourself so when I was a swimmer that was the Olympics and being an Olympic champion eventually you know that was always the aim it never happened by the way but that was the aim.
SM: How far did you make it?
TP: I swam in international level also that was an international meets open meets nationals regionals the main my main creative sort of through that was just in the UK but then towards the end and sort of like in my highest peak that was that sort of international competitions but to be honest I was mainly competing at that level from the age of sort of like 14 to 17 and then I got injured tried to you know tell myself I keep going and push it another similarity as a founder you up against challenge you just like keep pushing through and but the thing with an injury is that you can't really push through an injury and by doing that it created sort of a toxic culture in the pool and all sorts of other things which actually led to me quitting but I think that yeah going back to that initial question you know when thinking about where I wanted to be as a swimmer as a sports person and what my life would be around that and so what I'd need to commit to it outside of that do I need to go to uni to all of these sort of questions it's the same thing as I found I always consider where you know should I keep my eye on like job board so I do that's something I should do or and actually you don't do that because you're just fully committed 100% to what you've chosen to do is the most similar thing I think in your own path and it might still taught you just so much in terms of we're just saying before about structure determination to self-discipline as well to keep going because there must be done especially peak of Winter I think cold and dark thing you feel like doing is yeah getting up at like 4:30 in the morning on a on the shortest day of the year is is hell and then having to sort of like jump into a car wrapped in a blanket and get you know your parents drive you to swimming pool and it's just no one wants to be doing that but you do do it
SM: What made you get out of bed and make it happen?
TP: It's a really good question I I don't think I really have like a straight answer to it I so when I started swimming I mean my parents wanted me to swim from a young age just for so that if we went on holiday they could like let me go and see and don't have to worry because I was a good swimmer and all of this stuff and I think that through that I just got more and more into it it's like competing worked I was quite good at it and I think it just sort of happened like everyone always talks about sort of what was the light bulb moment of being a founder was the light bulb moment where you wanted to be a sports person all of this sort of thing I don't think it really happens like that a lot of the time with swimming it was definitely it just happened my parents never pressured me to do it obviously wanted me to be a good sort of holiday but they never fully swimming at the level I did and I think that the thing that kept me going was that when you're good at something and you get rewarded for your actions you know so with swimming that was winning a competition or improving on your personal best or you know knowing that you are just the best at something is they're quite validating and it's quite an ego boost but if you can manage that ego it can be just make you quite confident and willing to just keep going so I think that was really it you know you get those highs and don't get me wrong like through that there were an e-course or more amount of lows where didn't win did rubbish you know had a horrible time training didn't go trading whatever it was and I think that it's very easy to quit in those moments and you see it a lot in sports particularly in teenage you see a lot of teenagers who become very good athletes and then get to like 16 their friends start partying they start sort of want
those parties and then they sort of like why am I swimming I'm missing out on all my front like friend stuff I'd quite easy to quit you see so many people drop off and you just have to be you know quite a headstrong not to not to do that
SM: Just to hold that thought for a moment - around the winning the losing - I'm glad that you mentioned that, because the definition of burnout is when you're continually working and not getting the reward out of it / you're not getting that satisfaction, so do you think it kind of needs to be like 50 whether it's in athleticism entrepreneurship in order you like you're not going to win them all that like to have enough wins to keep you going?
TP: I'm someone who works on positive reinforcement if I'm not doing why that's happening instead of telling me I'm rubbish I will tell me that it's wrong out right and there's no sort of like follow onto that I'm much better at sort of like this wasn't working here's how you can improve we'd love to see you get to here or I'd love to get you to there and so having coaches around you you can do that turn a loss into a win because you learn from it so I think that you probably do need those but it's how you manage those like I think that actually if you consistently winning you wouldn't appreciate the wins like a lot of the time and I think we see that quite a lot with with successful founders is that they like really successful you know multiple exits they sort of made it and then they sort of forget what it is to not make it and they sort of tell people like all of this stuff about like your mentor will be and like membrane and it's like "easy for you to say dude, like you're not going through it now you've been there though so let's just remember that" - I think that actually for those like in those trenches you you'd really appreciate the wins and it keeps you going because you know you can get to the next one and if you can't and if you have to stop it's not like stop and you've like lost all of that experience it stop and you learn from it and then you go on to whatever is next whether it's being a founder again or whether it's going and working the best and different life you know it's it's all about how you learn from that loss so then similarly when I quit swimming it wasn't going although there was a period where it was like well what the fucked out but after that was like okay how do I take everything I've learned from this determination ambition's stress pressure from other people and I would I put that into doing something good and driving that forward
SM: I love that - that is such a great answer for a question that was completely unprepared! I couldn't wish for a better answer on that! It makes a lot of sense. It's just really interesting because the basis of this podcast is that entrepreneurship is so overly glamorized and it is hard work and I just see - whether it's my own businesses or vicariously through the entrepreneurs that we work with - it's just you know get even those wins you know I guess yeah there's one part of it which is how you define those wins - I'm the same as you in terms of positive reinforcement but you're just like rejection after rejection especially if you haven't got product markets there and you're trying to make it work - it's hard!
TP: I also think that like there's seems to have been this huge move of like "everyone should hustle," "everyone should be a founder" - at some point, you know you need to experience being a founder like going and interviewing people in the street who are quite happy with their jobs and being like "I'm gonna give you this money to go to start your own business" and it's like, what if they don't?? You know people might go I don't want to start own business and then we judge them for that and it's like well, actually probably smart to say no! Starting a business is hard and if you are comfortable and happy doing what you do then stick with it - you don't need to be a founder you don't need to start a business and I think also what's glamorized is the idea of being a startup founder - we forget that being a founder doesn't necessarily mean being a startup founder could be just starting a small business or a side business and that doesn't have to be aiming to be a unicorn or a decacorn like you could literally just want to provide for your family live comfortably even just have a side income alongside your other job and that's all perfectly reasonable and like that's okay and you don't have to like aim to be this like Steve Jobs guy you know I think that we we really glamorized that part like it's the end bit like you could be like this and you know very rarely you can have end up there and very very rarely is the right is it right for everyone if not even for a small percentage of people so yeah I think if you're absolutely right it's the glamorisation of this thing which is hard but also not for every single person I wouldn't and how everyone go and start training and being an Olympic swimmer like why like you might not want to do that it's not might not be in their genes you know whatever it is and that's absolutely fine.
SM: Great answer. So segueing on from your athletic parts into entrepreneurship so when did you found Canopey?
TP: Canopey started really started when my first business collapsed, so what's gives some context to this I when I quit swimming I sort of took a year and went on worked in Levi's and was just like tailoring jeans and was like what the hell do I want to do with my life I quite enjoy being around sort of business and my dad has his own business so it's like well maybe I should do that but it was never really an intention and all my friends have gone to uni so I was like I'll go to uni and I just sort of like went to a course which it interesting no idea whether I was actually enjoy it but when I was there so I went and studied international relations and politics and when I was learning about so many global issues and the interconnectedness between business Society government all of this stuff very interesting but actually the most interesting part was the people I met around that degree and one of those people weren't for green peace so instantly fell in love with the idea of using people power to change sort of Status Quo you know we've seen it through history I wrote my dissertation and in my undergrad about communism which basically just like the idea the capitalism doesn't have to be the only way of working and there are lots of other societies which would work anyway but have a tangent to get to the point that when I was working in Greenpeace I really found my passion in working in the climate sector and using people power and getting people involved and doing something good and feeling good about doing something good is perfectly okay even if that's your only intention doing the good thing and I and so out of that just sort of like kept working in the sector set up my first business out of Greenpeace stupidly well but without knowing in the event sector and pandemic killed it but that that was when it was like okay well I don't want to stop being a founder now I've got the taste this is why I love doing it reminds me of being a swimmer I really enjoy the stress but I also really enjoy having like an ambitious goal and we were sort of stood in a field of sort of plastic waste and we'd spoken to hundreds if not thousands of businesses trying to build better products I'd spoke to tens of thousands of people to onboard them into the climate movement and there's this huge barrier between people trying to do better and the ability to do so and the business is trying to make it easier to do so literally just another field went to my now co-founders and just yeah it was like let's take down Amazon and let let's build a sort of like the place to go and buy for sustainable products. I was in that field and that was probably 2019 was when that first side coming out and then we went inside building from there. We didn't start incorporating the company until a couple years later but it was that was really the seed.
SM: And so tell us about Canopey itself.
TP: It's an online marketplace but it goes beyond simply shopping for ethical goods. so I think you know one of the things that we particularly I knew about the sort of climate movement or the ability to live more sustainably from a consumers perspective was that it's really complicated to do so a multiple different platforms multiple different user journeys you've got to go and learn about what swap so you can make you've got to verify the claims that those brands are making to make sure that you don't buy something which you think has no plastic in it has passed again and all of these things then you've got to actually find someone to buy the products right and trust that all that works done for you and then you've got a sort of if you can be bothered to track your impact and know how much impact you're having and whether you could do better and all this thing it's too hard and even for someone who has worked in the sector my whole career I deeply passionately care about how we're impacting the climate I find that too difficult and I as a consumer wouldn't go down that journey so can it be was really set up with the idea that if we could remove those barriers and we can make it as easy to choose that option as to go to just a mainstream platform and buy whatever then we have a much better chance at getting the majority of the population rather than just the eco warrior two shots sustainably and live more sustainably so Canopey does that kind of be as the only platform which completely streamlines those different journeys into one platform. It's a marketplace you could go there and you could buy as you normally would but also we verified claims for a really strict process, we've added so much educational content and learning in fact part of our platform could even be considered edtech just through the platform being that we've built and then on top of that you're able to see the carbon emissions the water waste and the plastic waste that you're saving when you make that purchase comp to the mainstream alternative all-in-one platform, one user journey, you don't need to go anywhere else, you're rewarded for those actions, it's super easy to use and that just makes it so much easier for everyone to be able to buy better.
SM: It sounds amazing and this fantastic like all-in-one place streamlined online destination coupled with the fact that climate change is on the top of most if not everyone's agenda we've just come off the back of like the wettest July I've ever known, we've got wildfires happening left right in centre, temperatures are rising - why is Canopey not bigger?
TP: We're ambitious, we think that there have been a number of shops which have sort of like provided ethical goods but we've come to a point now in sort of society where you can't just claim something we need to see the evidence for that we need to know we need to be able to trust we need to give trust back to the consumer the climate movement has done so well sort of talking about the problems the issues of climate crisis. What it hasn't done so well is providing solutions for your everyday person, so we've spent you know the last five decades really telling everyone how bad the world is going to get and how much of a problem this will be if we don't change something but we haven't given many solutions we've done well at providing solutions for businesses and governments we've really struggled with consumers so I think that Canopey if we can do what we say we're going to do and the fact that we've got the tech back that up and the platforming to do it naturally business has pivot so I don't I'm not gonna sit here and tell you that this is it we've made it but I think that we've got a stronger chance at bringing more people into that than ever before just simply because we've made it easier than ever before. For the entirety of human existence we have innovated for the convenience that we now have today and we can continue to innovate to give more convenience to people if you ask people to go back and give back that convenience for whatever moral or not it's very very hard to convince exactly I would argue that it wouldn't happen much of the climate movement would disagree with me that we need to give up that convenience I actually take a controversial opinion that I think that we can have even more convenience but we can use better business and better tech to to be able to solve the problems that we're faced with today so for Canopey it's not about going you bad consumer give up all of this stuff and be better it's going no keep going we're gonna make it even easier for you, but actually you're going to be able to trust us that this is going to be quantifiably better than anything you've bought before for the planet for people and for your wallet as well ultimately.
SM: This is so inspiring; I feel like I want to increase Greenpeace go for it they need about it
That saying the discomfort of change needs to be greater than that of convenience, where it's like in order to make a chat you've got to come out of the or routine what you're used to the use cases you shot so I think you completely got the right idea about it in terms of making it as easy as possible as convenient as possible because you need to you need to lubricate that adoption to make it happen because I think these guys at your talking about they are focused on people like them the eco warriors the ones who already bought into it the ones who are but as you say you need that suggestion to make a to make a change you know having a very niche part of the consumer market despite that growing
TP: More and more people are involved with time and more and more people are supporting the groups that are pressuring governments and pressuring businesses to change more and more of our suspending our money supporting better businesses but despite that the likelihood is is that those people are doing that because it's become easy for them to do those things they found a way in which that fits in with the other things that they've got going in life family troubles money troubles energy costs you know whatever it is and I think that if we can sort in the ability to use Canopey rather than using something like Amazon or you know whatever it is then you you just provide much more of a pathway to adoption that then simply going you know radically change your life overnight because this is not going to happen and it shouldn't happen in my opinion I also think that free the 80s and 90s there was this sort of like huge amount of writing and art about sort of like utopian green society you know you'd see these like really futuristic cities and sport that were running off like clean renewable energy there were lots of plants it was very greed like green like in colour and I think that why you did we lose that when we talk about the climate like when we talk about solutions to the climate crisis now when people talk about traditional solutions to the climate crisis we think of like all we need to be like cavemen oh we need to like give up all of this stuff or we can't ever drive we can't ever fly like why like why can't we move towards that utopian idea giving the ability for people to live the way they want to if not even more conveniently but with the move and again that that north star that drive to get to this sort of society where we live solving harmony with with the surrounding nature and natural world that we live upon I think that's a much better way to encourage people to get involved also I'd much rather live in a world like that than be a caveman so however you cut wood and stuff great fun but you know it's not really why I want to do my whole life
SM: What's your stance on bigger countries China these huge powers that are polluting the world, the bigger corporates just bearing in mind obviously with Canopey or focused on the consumer and encouraging some of that behaviour change and giving them better options but there is this tug of war between who has the power is at the mass markets at the consumers or is it these big corporations and big countries that are really responsible?
TP: So there's three things that I'm I'm gonna say the first is that doesn't matter like firstly like if we just didn't change anything and we decided that are 2% of global emissions was completely irrelevant so therefore we didn't change anything ever and every other country did then we would end up being more polluting than everyone else so there makes no there's no argument there because we should all be moving towards that better world the second is that you actually write big corporations and big countries obviously have more of an impact than sort of the individual person sat in the UK and well I'm going to come back onto this but I have more of an impact from a sort of like global emissions perspective however like again a lot of this is coming down to the impact that we demand so like what we are asking for from other countries has an impact on those countries own emissions the third thing I'd say is that like actually data wise China is pushing further ahead than any other country on the world on transition to renewable energy despite their coal stations and coal mining they're still further ahead on implementing Renewables and secondly to that is that their historic missions if you can count in the historic emissions of countries the UK the US and and Europe are by far the the biggest culprits when it comes to what we've done to the planet and thirdly to that is that actually more of China's emissions come from their exporting from the demand of Western countries than China's internal demand from their own nation and if you looked at the emissions per capita so per person in the country UK bar worse than China and actually the worst countries in the world of the oil polluting countries they're not very populated and they've got and they've got you know huge oil industry right like Kuwaits Qatar Saudi Arabia like they've got small populations their economies built on oil so per capita each person's own amount of emissions that is accounted to them it's ridiculously high right it's not very good representation of like what the world is and what who's demanding that oil the us and the UK and Europe are of course so I think that it's a complicated topic and actually I just go back to that very first point that I made which is that it shouldn't really matter we should all be moving towards that change so that the whole world lives in a better way not just like well let's get trying to change first and then we'll change largely it doesn't really matter we should we make that transition
SM: That's such a fantastic answer, thank you for that. Most startups have a clear mission, we talk about having purpose, especially from a marketing perspective - you don't get more mission driven than Canopey so I wonder: does it hurt more when you face rejection? Because it's not it's bad enough to just feel rejection anyway on a human level but as a founder it's hard to not take it personally when it's your own business you're on the early stages and then when it's also goes beyond you your team your business it's that wider mission that caused that you're fighting for and I know for a fact you still get investors turning you down. What does that feel like for you?
TP: I think there's two parts which are hardest is one yes from the individual perspective it's of course difficult and tying into that the fact that this is a solution to a huge problem which whoever you are investor you are going to experience right so it's like why wouldn't you support those Solutions is one question however I know it's a lot so Naive to think that that's all that goes into investment and I appreciate that it's capital return and there's so many other questions around competitors and market size and all the rest of the stuff so I'm very aware of that so when that side of rejection happens it's the initial for is like
well you should be backing these things and but then the second thought is but okay but why not us and what other reasons around that and then so it becomes less of a personal attack and more of just like okay how do we move and convince people and and change so I I'm less concerned about the personal side the side which frustrates me most is when I when we get rejection is the sort of standardisation of climate solutions it's like oh there have been other ethical marketplaces where you clearly haven't looked at what we do that because no one does what we do like yes the model is marketplace correct but do any of them verify the claims no do any of them allowed to track your impact to get rewarded for it share it come back sticky platform no so it's like how much of you actually looked at what we do that's the initial reaction and then the second reaction is widen they see what we actually do did we not relay that properly how can we change our proposition so people see that instantly and go I get it this is different this is into the term this is solution so it is painful but I think the really what all founders should learn to do is not take that personally the first thing is of course going to be a hit but but then you you just have to sort of like work out why that response came in some cases it is just going to be shit and like those people you're just gonna not agree with and you've just got to accept that in other cases that are likely her you probably haven't related what you do properly and that's pretty huge learning curve for us you know raising our pre-seed rounds sort of into this year but really started last year and doing that pre-product on the market pre-revenue we had traction in other ways but you know there was nothing to see tangible for investors like I totally get why we got so many notes if I was just telling someone what we do it sounds great but like from the model perspective it's just a marketplace right so I get whereas now like we have a product on the market with people can see we can relay those properly we refined how we talk about what we do as I said you know when you send me overs or like what you wanted to talk about I came back and said well actually one of the things which is really important is that we talk about streamlining the user journey because nowhere else does that and that is what you see me to canopey so if we refine these things I'm I get more confident at being able to raise money again and keep that going I think just to finish that sort of long winded answer off I think that one of the things that is quite difficult just generally is sort of going back to your point about being your baby like you've put so much time and and it's when you get repetitive nose that you become less like you you can less about the reason and you just hear them know so in the first instance the first few "no"s you're sort of like okay but why? And then like after like 100 it's like okay I don't know if I want to hear a "no" again but again you pick yourself up of that I know after our pre-seed round I went through like a month of just feeling like really shit like really, really crap and even though we'd closed the round I should it should be the happiest point right I felt terrible I wanted to raise more I wanted more people backing ass I'd heard "no"s from people I really respected and it was just like quite demoralizing but about you know a month after that we had our next small win and it was like "oh fuck yeah right let's go again" like I can do this I can raise more money.
SM: It sort of cancels it all out and you just get going amazing and it links back to what we were talking about earlier and you just you need you know because it feels horrible, feel it emotionally and you saying months later you did get a win but you know if you had it it's like well how much longer keeps going to do those reserves need to keep getting you through but no honestly Thomas big congratulations not only on Canopey which is obviously amazing but securing your fundraise during a time where I was pre-product pre-revenue
TP: we got our first commitment and then Russia invaded Ukraine Silicon Valley tech bubble burst it costs an energy crisis in the UK was sort of announced and inside sold coming and hitting the real person then it was like recession on the card so everyone's a bit nervous and then like all of these other ethical businesses started closing because of challenges in the market and it was just like every month was like something new and it was every month like talking to investors who we thought were going to invest who turn around and go wow this is changing the market we're going to invest in our own companies gonna play it Safe and you couldn't make it up just fine non-stop so anyone who raised money regardless of what stage that I'm super impressed with that and Proud to call them like founders in the market because they've just done amazing what absolutely absolutely no well done and you are able to share how much you yeah we raised just under 300k which was fine we could do everything we want to do with that money we've actually we're sort of preparing for our seed round now right so that seed round is planned for sort of opening in December and then but really through q1 in 2024 and we've started to sort of have those conversations and peak interest and instantly I can tell you having a product the people can see make so much difference like I just get like so much better response instantly I haven't even opened the round yet we haven't even really gone to the point where we're talking about the rays it's just like instantly when I talk to people we got a c-round coming they're like let's talk I'll just like why didn't I just like get something like I'm just make it up like this is the product create a video of it put it on this is the thing like we had demo and but I think I think what is what's the difference and I think people talk about this right like get a product out on the market get an mdpl like or have a product demo or whatever and I get that argument like totally do and it does make a difference but I think the real difference for us site from now to when we were things sort of on demo videos is actually the fact that they can just go and use like something which is complete like there's always going to be new things that we're adding right like and as I said we're probably pivot at some point like no doubt but the point is is that what we had planned to build is built so when people go and use it they get that full user experience now and that's very different from a demo video or an MVP so I think that actually like I'm very very lucky that we're at the point where the money that we raised will allow us to do what we need to get to the next round but actually we can actually have our product out on the market and people can use it and feel it and give feedback and we can improve it and ask to such a nice feeling amazing
SM: I have a final question for you I believe that the biggest lessons come from the worst things that happened to us and strategy and tragedy is there can you open up about something pretty horrific that's happened and the lesson that it's taught you and how you've kind of come back stronger than before?
TP: Yeah wow ending for everyone to have like a raw response I think that we've spoken a lot about swimming and obviously that was a big part of my life for for the my whole teenage years growing up right so enthusiastic answer would be to go to back go back to that and talk about how I always thought I was gonna just swim and all of those things but but actually I think the hardest thing that happened and the biggest lesson I learned was when I was going through my swimming career I was also experiencing quite severe mental health challenges as a teenager and at the time didn't think that they were mental health challenges just for that it was because of you know swimming and being in a high pressure environment and all these things only when I stopped swimming and then went through this Gray period of not know what's doing my life was when it really really got bad and I think that that's when I first got diagnosed with borderline personality disorder it's when I first started having therapy and counseling and a lot of bad shit happened from the age of sort of like 18 to like 24 which isn't the long ago and it was just like really really hell for me my family for everyone around me and there were good points within that I think you know everyone talks about mental health as if like when you've got mental problems it shit all the time not true you have pretty normal life but now just some really bad points and I think that the reason I mentioned that is because where am I at today is so so different like I still outboard line personality disorder I'll live with that my whole life but the lesson of learning to deal with that and going through those challenges and difficulties having people around you who can talk to losing people because you know you didn't manage it correctly all of that stuff like you you begin to create a bank of different ways of dealing with challenges not just at mental health but just generally so now when we're you know a startup and we're going through challenges in a company going through challenges and personal life whatever it is I feel so just like overwhelmingly prepared for those things because I've already experienced the shist it could get so it's like come up but you know like what are you gonna do like you can't make it worse than it was so everything is going to be a challenge sure but like I can manage I can take it like I can take literally anything that's very me kind of be fails it's gonna be shit but they'll be another thing that happens after Canon because I know how to deal with failure that's what I learned from having that horrible horrible time at the Beginning on my 20s but I'm really glad that I experienced it now.
SM: Thomas, you've been such a fantastic guest thank you so much for coming on I know that you talk more about this on the Big Risk Energy podcast, so shoutout to Roei Samuel - that give that a listen - where I know that you talk a bit more about mental health and other really interesting themes around meditations and spirituality so listen to that episode separately! Thomas, thank you so much again wonderful appreciate it.
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